There are seven people vying for the leadership of the Likud. Somebody's already updated the Wiki article. Shaul Mofaz is not currently a member of the Knesset. The candidates are:
Netanyahu, Uzi Landau, Shaul Mofaz, Yisrael Katz, Limor Livnat, Silvan Shalom and Moshe Feiglin. If Moshe Feiglin wins I shall seriously think of seeking work abroad.
Wednesday, November 23, 2005
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18 comments:
God help us if Feiglin wins. Just an aside with regard to Feiglin - years ago, I wrote a letter to the editor of the JPost (in the days before English-language Haaretz), condemning his group Zo Artzenu's road blocking ploys. Nothing radical, just stating that I didn't think that people would support them if they were forced to be stuck in traffic during rush hour because of their antics. Guess what? I got a number of nasty phone calls at home as a result of that letter. Good to see that nothing has changed in that realm, eh?
Oh dear. I am sorry.
Yeah, well... Nature of the beast, I suppose. Fortunately, I'm inclined to believe (and desperately hope) that Mr Feiglin and his ilk are not the flavor they're looking for. Otherwise, I shall be joining you abroad, I think.
Shurley we *want* Fagin to win strategically because that will marginalise Likud further as a minority extremist party and allow for this new 21st c centrist project to prevail...
Why are all the commenters so convinced that Feiglin is an extremist? Have you read what he himself has written (and there are many examples of his writing on Manhigut's web site - http://jewishisrael.org) or are you basing your opinion on what you read in the press?
I read in the press that Israel is a genocidal, Nazi-like state. Should I believe it? Why should the Israeli press be bias-free when no such example exists anywhere else in the world.
Regarding "she" who thinks blocking traffic will alienate potential supporters, this belief flies in the face of experience. Which experience am I referring to, you ask? Why that of terrorism and murdering Jews. You'd think that would alienate many potential Jewish supporters, but inexplicably, the more the Arabs murder Jews, the more support (or at least sympathy) among Jews they seem to garner.
Don't go jumping to conclusions that I am equating blocking traffic with murdering Jews, because that is not what I said.
Most of what I know about him is anecdotal. His written works and speeches give the appearance of a reasonable person.
Sorry Scott. Maybe I'm just too tired to see the connection, but I fail to understand what one thing has to do with the other. I'm against acts of civil disobedience that disrupt the lives of everyday citizens, and believe that these acts, while they may strengthen the support of those already in their camp, will only serve to alienate those who may have been ambivalent prior to the disruption. To make the leap from being against such acts to being in favor of terror against the Jews is ludicrous. Such comparisons are absurd and not worth addressing.
"To make the leap from being against such acts to being in favor of terror against the Jews is ludicrous."
She, I never made any such leap.
You said that blocking intersections is counterproductive because it will generate sympathy rather than hostility to the cause. That is your reaction, but just because you feel that way doesn't mean that everyone else will react similarly.
40 years ago, no one gave a shit about the "Palestinians." Just a few highjackings and murders later and much of the world sympathized with their cause. Am I saying they were right to murder innocents? Hardly! I am making an observation.
I haven't stated whether or not I support civil disobedience in general or road blocking in particular. I have said one thing. ONE THING. That such actions actually DO work. That is all. I'm not justifying them. Just observing reality, not how I think reality should behave.
Adrian, if he sounds reasonable to you, why the flippant statement about leaving Israel?
Scott, I am confused.... you write that road blocks generate support for the cause of those doing the blocking. You have not proven that statement in your comments as far as I can see. Your arguement said that experience shows that the more Arabs murder Jews, the more sympathy they receive (if I understood you correctly). So, really, the only thing that you have argued is that terrorism, or specifically terror carried out by murdering innocents, does not necessarily make people look disfavorably upon the terrorist or the group they claim to represent. You have not yet argued any point about how your experience has lent you to believe that people who block roads gain support for their cause. You have simply tried to say that because it is true for terrorism it is true for traffic disrupting civil disobedience. That style of argumentation is a bit hole-ridden and I think you would have been better served leaving terrorism out of the comment and trying to find support for your thesis that road blocks are effective. My tendency is to, of course, take my own experience into my evaluation of a scenario and I would have to say that I would not personally be inclined to support people who made me late to work. Or, more correctly, if I were on the fence on an issue, that tactic would most likely push me off and NOT in favor of those who made traffic a nightmare.
Several people have heard him speak including Mrs E who was horrified at what she heard. That , of course , was all in rapid Hebrew which goes over my head. When he speaks in his fluent English he has a very different, moderate, middle of the road messaqe to avoid frightening the Americans.
That sounds like Yasser Arafat's old trick. He was much more hard-line anti Israel speaking in Arabic. When he spoke English he moderated his views.
Scott, You wrote, "You said that blocking intersections is counterproductive because it will generate sympathy rather than hostility to the cause." I just reread what I wrote (which was related to events that took place more than seven years ago), and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I wrote that such antics would be counterproductive, as people would be less inclined to be supportive if they were inconvenienced.
I can remember talking to my neighbors at the time, people who were quite upset over the amount of time it had taken them to get home after a long day of work, thanks to the roadblocking by Feiglin and Company, people who were stuck in traffic for hours. There was no support for these actions among my neighbors.
Perhaps you didn't intend to make such a leap, but when you make such a vivid comparison, I think it is only natural that people will assume that you are somehow connecting the two. I've discovered via this whole blogging business that one has to be extremely careful with regard to a choice of words, as people will read them in the manner that best suits them, which is not necessarily the way in which they were intended.
Adrian and Cathy,
What Arafat has said in English and Arabic to different audiences has been extensively documented. Yet both of you assume that is the also the case with Feiglin. Without providing a shred of evidence, other than that Mrs. E was "horrified" at what she heard (without even saying what it was she heard), this is a slanderous accusation at best.
Manhigut has web sites in Hebrew and English, Feiglin and other Manhigut members write extensively in both languages, they interview in both languages, and not once, anywhere, has anyone EVER said they they give a different message to different audiences. NOT ONCE. The entire media establishment, with the exception of Arutz Sheva (and perhaps some minor religious outlets), is uniformly hostile to Manhigut and Feiglin. Were this accusation actually true they would be all over it before you could blink.
NRG, step back for a minute. Put aside your personal opinion on terrorism and civil disobedience, and those who perpretrate such actions.
Whether or not you agree or disagree with the methods or goals, the methods do work. They garner sympathy and awareness for a cause.
You might recoil in horror at terrorism and might find road blocking annoying, but both are types of street theater that attract attention.
Consider this quote by Feiglin on Manhigut's web site (http://www.jewishisrael.org/views/feiglin/feiglin_6515.htm):
BEGIN
Feiglin responded to criticism claiming such protest methods alienate and anger the public rather than eliciting sympathy saying he had heard such claims before and believed they miss the point. "When Zo Artzeinu blocked the roads ten years ago and stopped the whole country, we had the same question. 'What are you doing? People are going to hate you -- instead of winning them over to your side you are going to make them upset.' What happened was the exact opposite. I remember going to the US a half year later and a stewardess recognized me at Ben Gurion Airport. She said: "I am a leftist, an extreme leftist -- but until you blocked the roads and I could not leave home, I did not even know that there was a problem. I realized then that it wasn't 80% against 20%, but 50% or more of the people who don't agree with that Oslo agreement."
END
Sure, the statement is anecdotal, if it is to be believed at all, but fits much more with what I assert to be the general response to such acts than your own gut reaction (Ugh! I hate it and it turns me off, and must turn off everyone else too).
Terrorism (unfortunately) works. It has made the Palestinian people a cause celebre not just in the rest of the world, but (inexplicably, according to your logic) in Israel as well. A single act affected the results of an election in Spain last year.
I shall enquire further.
Scott, once again, the point you were trying to argue originally is that road blocks work, not terrorism. You have further made my point, which is that you have not made yours. I did not provide my opinion on the effectiveness of terror (reread my post), I provided my opinion of road blocks. But mostly, I provided constructive criticism of your arguement. I am still waiting for you to back up your statement about the effectiveness of road blocks by using examples that actually have something to do with road blocks. I was surprised by your response to my comment. The main point of it was that you have not, in my opinion, presented a clear arguement to back up your assertion that protesting by blocking roads will garner support for a cause. You have, however, introduced a great deal of info on terrorism, which was NOT the topic being discussed. We can discuss terror, if you want, but could we take it one topic at a time?
NRG, short of doing a scientific study publishable in a peer-reviewed journal, what am I supposed to do? I thought an argument from analogy was a very clear and acceptable form of logic for the kind of assertion I made.
You have not questioned my claim that terrorism succeeds in raising support and awareness of a cause. Terrorism is monstrous. Civil disobedience is merely annoying. Why wouldn't it have the same affect? Remember, there are two components. First, raise awareness of a cause. Certainly you agree that road blocking does that. The second one, increase support for the same cause, you dispute. I then provided examples of a somewhat similar phenomenon (both are illegal, receive lots of press coverage, and offend people to varying degrees) where support has increased. I provided a quote from Manhigut's web site detailing a specific instance of the phenomenon that fit exactly with what I said and was completely at odds with what you believe.
Manhigut has a weekly update and during the run-up to the disengagement they often cited polls that showed a continuous decrease of support for the Gaza pullout. You could say that the decrease would have been more pronounced had road blockings never occurred, but that is an unprovable assertion. Besides, the simpler and more logical conclusion is that since support decreased the entire time, the road blockings had an affect exactly the opposite of what everyone here believes.
Incidentally, Manhigut did not organize or lead the recent pre-pullout road blocking campaign, although it was led by people affiliated with Manhigut and they did endorse and support the effort.
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